Good Product, Bad Growth? Here's What's Actually Wrong

Why Your Business Isn’t Growing (Even If You’re Good at What You Do)

You can have the best product or service in the world… and still feel like you’re pushing uphill when it comes to growth.

In this episode of The Tarryn Reeves Show, I sit down with marketing powerhouse Jensen Savage to unpack the real reasons businesses plateau, and what it actually takes to scale sustainably.

This isn’t another fluffy “just post more on social media” conversation. We’re talking about the deeper issues most entrepreneurs avoid… the ones quietly capping your growth.

Because here’s the truth:
It’s not just about getting more leads.
It’s about fixing what happens before and after they arrive.

Jensen breaks down why so many service-based businesses struggle to grow despite having incredible offers, and how to shift your strategy so your marketing actually converts into revenue (not just noise).

Inside this episode, we cover:

• Why great businesses fail to grow, and the hidden problem most people miss
• The difference between visibility and positioning (and why it matters more than ever)
• The biggest marketing mistakes service-based businesses keep making
• Why relying on word-of-mouth will eventually cap your growth
• The power of messaging, and how to communicate your value so people actually get it
• How to use data (without getting overwhelmed) to improve your ROI
• The truth about leads, and why more isn’t always better
• Simple ways to stand out in a noisy, AI-saturated market
• Why failure isn’t a sign you’re doing it wrong, it’s part of building something that actually works

This episode is your wake-up call if you’ve been:

• Feeling stuck at the same revenue level
• Getting leads that don’t convert
• Posting content that isn’t landing
• Or wondering why your marketing “should” be working… but isn’t

Because growth isn’t random. 
It’s engineered.

And once you understand the systems, messaging, and strategy behind it, you stop guessing… and start scaling.

🎧 Tune in now and start building a business that doesn’t just look good, but actually grows.

Key Takeaway:
Your business isn’t stuck because you need more effort.
It’s stuck because you need a better strategy.

Connect with Jensen:

• LinkedIn
• Facebook

Connect with Tarryn

Transcript

0:39

today I'm joined by Jensen Savage, who is a powerhouse of strategic marketing recognized for her award-winning expertise and a track record of generating a remarkable ROI for service-based businesses. As the founder of Savage Growth Partners, Jensen has led marketing campaigns that have driven tens of millions in revenue for businesses across various service industries. Jensen's work has been organically featured in highly accredited media outlets such as Forbes, Yahoo Finance, Wired and Inc. She is known for her hands on leadership, strategic insight and dedication to results. Jensen is a sought after marketing expert who consistently delivers impact. Jensen, welcome to the show. thank you so much. Thanks for having me. It's an absolute pleasure. I can't wait to talk all things marketing, especially with your track record of ROI, because there's so many, you know, cold beat DMs, landing in entrepreneurs inboxes every day saying, we can do this, we can do that. uh But to actually get the real ROI is the difference. So before we jump into all of that, I want to talk about the bigger picture, right? So There are so many great businesses out there who struggle to grow. They've got excellent products or services. Why do you think that they do struggle to grow? Yeah, so it comes down to a couple of core issues in my experience. One of them is not being able to relay that value, right? So you can have the best product or service. If people can't understand that in a really snappy way, it's really difficult for your marketing and your sales efforts to work. uh So that's one. The other thing is just having a good marketing strategy and executing on it. I think two of the most important things in any business are marketing and then your service or your product. Those are two of the things you cannot live without when it comes to building a business that's really gonna grow and be sustainable. So I think those are the big things that stick out that I've seen. Do you think if someone has a product that is maybe not the best on the market, but they have an ace marketing strategy that they can still be successful? depends on how you define success. I think you can definitely make a lot of money for sure. ah Sustainability is where you're gonna run into issues if you don't have a great product or service because word gets around, um people don't come back and continue to buy so your lifetime value's lower. ah Your brand authority and the way that people view you is overall in a worse spot So that's where you really start to run into those issues are long term and I've seen so many companies or freelancers, you know, market themselves as they can do this or you know, they have this awesome thing and then it the if the product or service doesn't live up to all these promises, it's You can make a bunch of money, but I don't necessarily equate that to success. I think yeah, it's got to, the product and service have got to be aligned and got to be supportive of the marketing and the marketing has to be supportive of the product or service. It's all got to be high quality in order to really build a successful, sustainable business. Hmm. So when a business is kind of stuck at a plateau. Let's say they're either having, you know, a product issue, a lead issue, a marketing issue, whatever it is, what is usually the real, culprit behind that? Is it leads? Is it positioning? Is it something deeper? What's the most common thing you're seeing? So usually it comes down to something deeper in a lot of cases. Usually it's that whatever system got them to the point that they're currently at, that system can't sustain the next phase of growth. So what that might look like in practice is let's say they have gotten by so far on word of mouth. You can build a substantial business on word of mouth, but... Usually if you just rely on word of mouth, you're gonna hit some point of getting stuck in place and you can't really push that further, right? You can only ask for referrals so many times. You can only do a good job for all the people that you work with. So there are limits to that and same goes for any system. There are limits to it. And so a lot of the time when you see plateaus happening, you kind of have to peel back and look at the under lying infrastructure and see what's actually going on there because usually it's that the system that the business has operated on to get there. It's not going to sustain that next level. Yeah, that makes sense. And in your experience, I'm sure there are some warning signs that a business is heading towards a plateau or a stagnation, even if the owner is kind of like, everything's going fine. Because, you know, as entrepreneurs, when we're in it, sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. So what are those kind of first warning signs that we should be looking out for as entrepreneurs to go, oh, you know, maybe we need to start looking at something before we run into trouble? Mm-hmm. I think two of the really big ones are especially in the service space increased time whether it's just You if you're a solopreneur or you and your team spent on each project So, you know the the scope of work increasing and you're slowly having to spend more and more time and getting paid the same amount for something That's something I see a lot other thing is costs increasing but not in uh direct relation to your revenue. So you're slowly becoming more or less and less profitable. Those are two of the two of the big things and those creep in. It doesn't really just happen like overnight. all of a sudden now we're spending twice as much on this project as we used to. uh It's it's something that happens really slowly. So you have to really be on the ball as far as recognizing those signs. But those are two of the biggest indicators in my experience. And are there some marketing mistakes that entrepreneurs are making, especially in the service space? Let's talk service space specifically, because I know that they're quite different from our product-based businesses. What mistakes are you seeing people make again and again in their marketing with a service-based business that's getting them into a bit of strife? So big one that I see is copying competitors word for word, or even if it's not word for word, just seeing something a competitor is doing and just trying to copy and paste that strategy to their business. And that's a problem because you don't know all of the backend mechanics that are happening, right? You see an ad, but what you don't see is the follow-up. You don't see... you know, are they scoring leads? Are they segmenting leads? There's all these other things under the surface that you have no visibility into. And you also don't know, you know, how profitable are they? What are they acquiring leads for? You can't look at those things. You only see the little top of the iceberg. um And so that's a big one. Just mindlessly copying because you can't see what's under the surface and you also aren't building. a real brand that way. It goes back to that long-term focus is sure, you can copy people and you can make money off of it. But if you're looking to build something that's truly influential and sustainable, you've got to really kind of consider what your long-term goal is with doing that. um So that's definitely uh something I see pretty frequently. Other thing that I see is, and this goes for products as well, but I see it more on the service side, is focusing very heavily on features and even benefits. And I always am a big proponent of focusing on transformational value versus just pushing really hard on what you do or what you think you are or what you have. All of those things just kind of go over people's head. It sounds great on paper, especially when you're the one that's passionate about your business and you're like, I don't understand how somebody wouldn't go with us because we do the best. Well, you have to be able to take a prospect through the journey of being here to here and how your service bridges that gap. That's the really, really effective marketing is the marketing that bridges that gap. And so a lot of service providers will fall into that, uh fall into that endless hole of just trying to blurt out all of the different little features and, you know, all the things that people don't necessarily care about. They care about that so much less. They really care about what this is going to do for them and how they're going to change by buying your service. So that's, that's another substantial one. So as a copywriter and obviously I own a publishing company, what I'm hearing is that the copywriting is so very, very important in your sales pages, even the scripts for your VSLs, your social media copy, your ads. What else does it come down to that really transformational value focused copywriting? Is there something else as well that's at the forefront? yeah, so copywriting is one of the bigger parts of the picture. I would even go as far as to say it's really just messaging and your entire brand, everything you do, marketing and sales related is all messaging. um So that's an incredibly important piece, probably one of the most important pieces to... crystallize in order to have really effective, really profitable marketing. messaging is the most important part of effective marketing and so copywriting is a huge part of that but everything else is also equally important so whether that's social media graphics or ads or uh The elements on a landing page other really good example is email follow-up. So when somebody ops into a page, what does your email follow-up look like? Does it support the rest of your uh marketing messaging? So really it kind of all, it's all in one big ball and there's different kind of pieces that support that overall goal, but it all kind of falls under that umbrella of messaging. Yeah. So if someone has run into some issues with their marketing and they're not quite sure what the issue is, where would you start with them? How do you begin to unravel the complex mess, I guess, that they've got themselves into? Mm-hmm Yeah, you've really got to start by Tearing into everything that they currently have going on. So whenever I work with a new client We're always looking at you know, where have you done marketing in the past? Have you done paid ads? Have you done, um Search ads. have you done SEO? What is your current strategy look like? What is your current um tech stack look like? What are you currently paying for leads and how does that relate to the overall profitability of your full funnel? So really you've kind of, it's a hard question to answer because you really have to go in and kind of uproot everything that they're doing and kind of figure out what the broken piece or pieces are because sometimes you'll also go in and you'll look at their marketing efforts and you'll see that yes, this channel is completely bleeding money all the time. This might not even be a good channel for you to be on period. uh But you might also go in and you see a channel where it's like, hey, your return on ad spend here has been like 50 times. So why are you not leaning more into that channel? So you find kind of opportunities by diving deeper into everything that they're currently doing. And so you kind of have to look qualitatively and quantitatively at kind of what's going on to try to. piece together a story from all the data and information that you're getting. Yeah. And I just want to touch very briefly on service-based versus product-based ones. Why do you think it's easier for product-based businesses to scale versus service-based businesses? So I think with service businesses, you run into scalability uh issues because you're dealing with more variables when it comes to human input. So products, if you've got a factory that can make X amount of whatever product and the quality is good, you've kind of got your problem solved there, right? Like if you were to boil it down, that's kind of all there is to it with product. um And obviously, you know, there's there's a little more to it. But as far as service goes to provide a service You typically are working human to human and so there's a lot more variables that are more difficult to standardize and so that makes scaling a lot more difficult because when you are growing on the marketing front, you're also introducing more variables and more opportunity for things to go wrong on the service front because, you know, maybe your employees are getting tired or they're getting overloaded with work. And so obviously any type of business, as you start to grow and scale, you introduce more complexity. But I think it's kind of tenfold for service providers. Hmm, yep. Now I've heard you say that visibility without positioning is just noise. Can you unpack that for us? What does true positioning actually look like in the real life, in real world practice? Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I think that's a great kind of callback to what I was talking about earlier with your messaging being so important because you can go on Facebook today you can pay Facebook to display your ads in front of a bunch of people and You could waste a lot of money depending on what those ads actually look like um and so that that's what I mean when I say Visibility without positioning is just noise because you have to be very intentional about that messaging that you're putting out there otherwise People have so many things that are going through their head that are going through their newsfeed every single day. It's so easy to scroll past anything, especially if it's not resonating So that's why you have to be really well positioned. And so when I say well positioned, I mean When it comes to your messaging you have to have it packaged up in a way that's easy to understand and emotionally resonates with your target audience. Those two things in and of themselves are going to exponentially increase your marketing results. And it sounds simple on the surface, but it's so incredibly important, especially as you start to grow and start to really take things to the next level. Your messaging... being on point becomes more and more and more important because things only get harder as you grow to get in front of more people and to do so profitably. So that's why you've really got to have that positioning dialed in. So that's a really quite simple but powerful way that a business can position themselves as, you know, the go-to choice in their industry, the go-to authority is what I always say. um Is there anything else? Are there other some simple powerful ways apart from like we've nailed our messaging, what else can we look at? So yeah, messaging the biggest one for sure. Other simple yet powerful ways and I always am on my clients about this is social proof. Any possible social proof that you can get especially as a service provider is so, so important. And especially in the more competitive markets, social proof makes a massive difference. whether that's, you know, depending on the nature of your business, whether that's Google reviews, whether that's video testimonials, whether that's case studies, humans are hardwired to be influenced by social proof. We literally cannot help but be influenced by social proof. So knowing that as a business owner, you can very much so leverage that, but you've got to have, you know, that mechanism for continuously um building upon that social proof, whether that's asking for a client's video testimonial after every time you do this for them or. Having a follow-up sequence that's automated that says hey, can you go leave us a review here? Those really simple low-hanging fruit things make a massive difference when it comes to how people perceive you because people are Always skeptical and they're getting more and more skeptical by the day. So the more Information and evidence that you can provide them with that. Hey this person who's like you used us and had a positive experience That's that's the the best thing that you could possibly do Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk practical examples that you've worked on. Can you share a story where you've done a small shift in positioning that created a huge revenue breakthrough for one of your clients? Tell us the story. Yeah, so one that sticks out for this is uh my work in the fitness industry. So I used to be a marketing director for a fitness company. And when we first got started out, there was no marketing strategy. There was no benchmarks. were I mean, it was completely wild west starting from scratch. And when we initially launched our ad campaigns, the messaging was a little bit more generic. um And over time, what we noticed was that the people that were really interested in our services were middle-aged women who dealt with this slew of really similar problems across all of them. And so, you know, they had a lack of confidence. They were potentially dealing with menopause, all these different things that they all had in common. And So knowing that we just kind of slightly leaned into that we didn't take it completely overboard, but we leaned into speaking directly to that segment of our audience that were our best, most engaged people who, you know, spent the most time with us, spent the most money with us, leaning our messaging just to kind of say, Hey, you, we see you, this is what we can do for you sort of thing. Um, that had just massive returns as far as our success. It really goes to show the power of actually resonating with your target audience and making them feel seen. So that was a big one where a small, seemingly inconsequential change made a massive difference. Yeah, so really dialing in on knowing who is actually buying from you. What happens if you are starting from scratch and you're a baby entrepreneur and you maybe don't have that many clients on the table? What would be the most effective marketing strategy to kind of go with to start gathering that data? Because as entrepreneurs, we're very good at assuming that, They must want this or, oh, this is what we're going to talk about. But in reality, sometimes that can be quite different. What are some ways that somebody can start to market to test who they are actually? landing with and then to grow on that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. And that's a huge obstacle that a lot of business owners run into. And I always say one of the worst things you can do is build something that nobody wants. And a lot of businesses make that mistake. And it sounds silly, but business owners will get really excited about, oh this idea is awesome. People are going to love this. People are going to want it. And they do all this building, they do all this branding, and then nobody bites. And it's because they didn't test. Right? didn't get any feedback from the marketplace as far as is this something that even has demand? It's like the most simple concept and economics ever is supply and demand. Well, if there's no demand, you can have all the supply in the world. It doesn't matter. Um, and so yeah, test was the operative word that you said there. And so that can be done in a lot of different ways. One is running paid ads where you can target your target audience. And from that, you can get that quantitative data that you can look at and see, you know, are people engaging with this? You know, uh if they are, what are the demographics of people that are engaging with this? And it is going to depend on the platform that you're on, but sometimes you'll be able to see job titles. You'll be able to see age, gender, geographic area, all these different. Parameters that you can look at and you can see their engagement level um at what rate they're converting and maybe you're even getting comments or uh Reactions to your ads as well and you can use all those things to kind of build a picture from that um So that's one way to test and that's how you can kind of get direct quantitative feedback and then on the qualitative side I would always recommend going to your target audience or who you think your target audience is and just asking them for feedback. Oftentimes you will get feedback that is so valuable by just talking to your audience. So for example, let's say you're helping small business owners or let's say like people that own small accounting firms. Well, Just reach out to them on linkedin or call up the ones in your town. Say hey I just had a question not a sales thing at all Is this something that you would find value in? and you'll get feedback like yes or no because and then you can use that to either redirect or Say hey every time I bring up this thing that i'm selling or doing people are like chomping at the bit so you can get that qualitative feel as well just by talking to people and having those conversations, but I think you've really just got to test and it doesn't have to be a whole bunch of different ways, but definitely test to just make sure that there is real demand for your service. Because the worst thing that you could do is just not test and fly blind and then you just end up wasting a ton of money and time. Yeah, that makes sense. So what are some of the biggest myths about marketing that are stopping entrepreneurs from investing seriously in it? I think one of the biggest myths is that you always need more leads. And the reason that that stops entrepreneurs from investing appropriately in marketing is because they'll see early results and they'll say, you know, my cost per lead was this, this was way too much. And so now I'm just going to dial back spending because my cost per lead was too high. And if I just need more leads, I'm just going to pay more money. And then, you know, it's, it's not going to be profitable for me. And so that's a huge myth because you don't want to just get a bunch of leads all the time and constantly just be Getting new leads, getting new leads, that's not the main goal of marketing. And that's also not the only function that you should focus on when it comes to growing your business. Yes, new leads are important, obviously, but you also have to look at the rest of your. system in your business when a lead comes in, are you optimizing every touch point that you have with them? Because you want to not only have a lead and get them at an appropriate price, but you also want to convert them at the highest level and have the highest lifetime value that you can get out of that lead. And so that's a big myth because it's just looking at one little teeny part of the process and then allowing that to limit the rest of your business's growth because you're so focused on pouring into this bucket that it has a bunch of holes and then when everything's leaking out of the bucket people are like okay well this isn't working and that's that's not necessarily the case. Yeah. Is there some sort of a roadmap that an entrepreneur can follow to kind of go, I need to look at this once I've sorted this, I need to look at this, then I need to look at this. Or is it different for everybody? It's different for everybody. I think before we started filming, we were talking about owning a business and how it's a completely different lifestyle and how some people are meant for it or they're not meant for it. And I think that... plays really in well into what I'm about to say, which is I think the best most successful business owners are the people that really know how to roll with the punches and learn from each lesson that comes your way because you can plan. Who was it? Mike Tyson that said, you know, everybody's got a plan until you get punched in the mouth sort of thing. And so, yes, definitely recommend, you know, planning. and having a roadmap or at least, you know, a loose roadmap. But at the same time, I think even more importantly than that is as you start to see different issues spring up, solving them and even proactively seeing things that might pop up in the future as well. So you can build to kind of mitigate those things, especially if you're looking to build a business that's continuously growing and as more of a long-term focus, you really have to focus on building those systems in a way that they're able to grow with the business. ah But yeah, basically all that to say, um build a plan. But I think more than that, focus on the fact that there are going to be a billion obstacles along the way and you just have to take each obstacle as it comes and then learn from that to inform then the next step. Yeah. So I know that you've generated massive ROI for the businesses that you have worked with and that you've done some really successful campaigns. How important is data in that ROI? Because I know that a lot of people will run an ad and they just find the data so boring that they don't even want to dabble in that. Let's talk about that. not only boring, but also extremely confusing too. yeah, so data is incredibly important. I always see it as kind of half being analytical and half being creative because you have to be able to analyze the data, but you also have to be able to tell a story from that. And then with that story, use that to inform the next phase of your strategy. All of that though boils down to having that data in the first place. So yeah, it's incredibly important because phase one of any marketing campaign or marketing effort is never gonna look like what phase two does, like what phase 100 does. And that's because you take these little pieces of data and you use them to tweak or test or change the next thing that then gives you more data. And you can say, oh, people... didn't like this or yeah, they were responding to this or actually maybe this should go a little higher on the page because people dropped off here. And so basically all that to say, yeah, data is the lifeblood of being able to scale something really large because if you have a great message and you shoot it out there and you just put it out in an ad campaign, you can get great results but. The issue is when it comes to trying to double down on that and trying to get better and better results. The only way that you can really do that with certainty is by leveraging data. Yeah. And what specific things in the data should they be looking for when they're running an ad campaign? So yeah, there's a lot of different little signals and there's different things that they all tell. So it depends on kind of how deep you want to get on the weeds here or in the weeds here. um with the top five. What are the top five most effective things? So big one is click through rate. So click through rate is how many people are clicking on your thing that you're getting in front of. So you're getting in front of them, are they clicking or not? That's a really powerful piece of data because it shows engagement. It could also give you some insights into targeting. um Because if you're targeting an audience that doesn't relate to your message at all, they're not gonna click, but also maybe you're getting in front of the right audience and your messaging is not resonating with them and so they're not clicking. So then you kind of dive deeper and then you have to do a little bit more, oh a little bit of experimentation um in addition to that. Other thing you wanna look at is cost per lead. Cost per lead is incredibly important as well because cost per lead then ripples down to the rest of your funnel and how Profitable your overall marketing efforts are um So that's another really important one um Those are probably the two main ones that I would look at right off the bat to kind of get a feel for interest to Start to optimize from there But then you can really go down a rabbit hole and dive really deep into all kinds of things like we can look at heat maps of the landing page and see you know, bounce rates and where people are losing it um but Those are, I'll keep it there. I would say those are the two ones that I would be really mindful of off the bat to get some direction as far as interest and targeting goes. And what type of platforms are you using to gather this data in the first place so they can be looked at? Yeah, so it's gonna depend on the type of campaign that you're running. um So you've got the native platforms, like if you're running, let's say Facebook ads, for example, you've got Facebook ads manager, there's also third party tools. um If you wanna get fancy and really start to connect things back to um ROI, because you can integrate with uh your CRM and say, okay, this person, brought us this much and then it ties back and so you can really start to flesh out the whole picture. So you've got the native tools, um but there's also tools, a big one that I love if you're running ads to a landing page is Microsoft Clarity. That gives you some great information as far as uh landing page activities. You can see things like I mentioned, like bounce rate, those sort of things where you can really see engagement on page. There's a whole other slew of things. Google Analytics is great, but yeah, those are some of the more common ones. Hmm. Yeah. Now marketing is something that seems to evolve so fast all the time. There's always, I feel like there's a new social media platform or a new trend or something popping up, a new tech stack. What strategies used to work five years ago that are now kind of outdated and what should we be keeping an eye on? Mm-hmm. I think Big big change that I've seen is being able to kind of spray and pray with your ads things are becoming more and more difficult so when it comes and and this isn't even just ads this is just messaging in general because we are fighting more than ever for people's attention and that being said you have to Be very intentional about your messaging more than ever before and so you used to be able to kind of just Put something out there on let's say facebook ads, you know five ten years ago and It didn't have to be that good and you would still get amazing results because it was kind of the wild west There was less noise out there Those days are dead and gone and other thing that I kind of along those lines that I've seen a big change is also social media engagement. So people on social media are becoming less and less responsive to canned or kind of generic messaging. And I think a huge part of that is the rise of AI, because so many people use AI for so many things. And a lot of the time, it comes off as canned and people are becoming more more adept at identifying AI generated content. And so that's also decreasing the um effectiveness of organic social media efforts for a lot of people as well. those are two of the bigger things that I've seen as far as changes in the past five years or so. And if we're a service-based business and we want to stand out in today's noisy market, what are some of the biggest opportunities we can look to harness? So social proof, big one, especially if you are a service based business because you have the opportunity for all of those different review platforms that exist to leverage those. um But honestly, I think just really clarifying your messaging in a very simple way and relaying that. Organically, I think is a massively underrated strategy right now because kind of to the flip side of what I said before, you know, there's all this noise. There's all this very generic content. The flip side of that though, is that more than ever real organic content resonates with people because it kind of stands out more than ever because before it was anybody that was posting was handwriting their content, you know, and so Now, being organic and real is sticking out a lot more than it ever has before. And so I think that that's kind of uh the light at the end of the tunnel as far as everything getting noisier. You have more of an opportunity to stand out just by being real. Yeah, I love that. What is one thing that we haven't spoken about Jensen that we really should have during this conversation? Ooh, I don't know. I think we hit all the bases, Thanks. We hit all the bases. Awesome. So if you could leave entrepreneurs with one truth about growth and marketing, what would you say? I would say that failure is part of the process. A lot of the time we convince ourselves that if we were good enough or if we were doing it right, then we wouldn't have these failures along the way. if I could just hammer this into entrepreneurs' heads is that there's gonna be a billion failures at every stage, whether you're getting started today or you're already running a$100 million company, there will be failures and obstacles. And the more you accept that that's just part of the process rather than a symptom of you not doing something right or you know not being good at what you do. I think you'll have more success though. Yeah. Now, before we wrap things up, Jensen, we have a tradition on this podcast called The Book Drop, and we want to know what book has impacted you either personally or professionally that you would recommend. I would recommend, I think it's called Influence the Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. That's an amazing book. yeah, I think understanding psychology and persuasion from a marketing standpoint, sales standpoint, entrepreneurial standpoint is so, so valuable. And that's a great book to get started with that. Amazing. Thank you so much for your insights into all things marketing today, Jensen. You really are a powerhouse in the space. For those of you who are looking for help with your marketing efforts, I'm going to pop Jensen's links in the show notes and you can find her there. Thank you so much.