The Tarryn Reeves Show

The Divorce Playbook: Why You Need More Than Just an Attorney

• Tarryn Reeves • Episode 35

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Divorce is more than a legal process—it’s an emotional and financial journey that can leave you feeling lost and overwhelmed. In this episode, Tarryn sits down with Nanette Murphy, a divorce and life transition coach, to explore why having the right team—including a divorce coach—can make all the difference. Drawing from her personal experience of a 25-year marriage and her work with countless women, Nanette shares practical strategies for navigating the complexities of divorce, rebuilding your life, and reclaiming your identity.

Discover the importance of financial readiness, self-care, and emotional resilience, and learn how to approach divorce as an opportunity for new beginnings. Whether you’re considering divorce, going through it, or looking for insights to support someone else, this episode is packed with wisdom, hope, and actionable advice.

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Good morning. Today, I'm joined by Nanette Murphy, who, after a 25 year marriage and raising three children, discovered her true calling as a divorce and life transition coach, specializing in helping women rebuild their lives after divorce. Drawing from her personal journey, she offers compassionate guidance and practical strategies to support women through one of life's most challenging transitions.

As an author, speaker, and mentor, she empowers others to find strength and resilience, sharing insights that inspire new beginnings. Her mission is to walk alongside women as they navigate the complexities of divorce and embrace their next chapter with confidence and hope. Nanette, welcome to the Tarah Reeve Show.

Hi, Tarryn. 

Nanette: Thank you so much for having me. 

Tarryn: It's an absolute pleasure and someone who is actually currently going through a divorce, I am very fascinated to hear your insights on all of these amazing things. So tell me, how did you 

Nanette: get into [00:01:00] this area? It's funny. I always say no one aspires to be a divorce coach.

For me, it's really been in the last, I guess, almost five years back in 2020 when everyone was obviously going through the same adjustments to life in solitude. I always joke and say after enough couple of weeks of Netflix and banana bread baking, I knew I had to do something else. So I literally dove into online courses and it started for me with a free Yale university course called the science of wellbeing.

And it was truly the platform that I, I had no idea where this was ever going and it just evolved this sort of taking one class after another. I joined, I'm not sure if you've ever heard of Mindvalley. 

Tarryn: I have, yeah. 

Nanette: And that was amazing. And. Then in 2021, I wrote my book during 2020 and became a certified life and health coach.

But it was when I discovered that divorce coaching even existed that I [00:02:00] was truly amazed, dumbfounded that I had no, I mean, I'd went through my own divorce. 

Tarryn: Yeah, 

Nanette: never knew that it even that the support was there. Yeah, it is still a relatively new industry Most people let I tell them what I do They say I didn't know that was a thing and I wished I'd have known you when I was divorcing And I always say I wished I would have known me when I was divorcing because it would have been so helpful To just have someone who's number one been through it And share their story because nobody wants to share their story.

And I've just, since then, the last few years, it's my purpose now. It's my mission to just help others through this. It's a difficult journey. 

Tarryn: It is definitely. And now you were in quite a long term marriage, weren't you? Um, and I'm sure there's some unique challenges that arise in long term divorces versus shorter marriages.

Can you? Give us a breakdown of what differences you're [00:03:00] seeing in those arenas. 

Nanette: Yeah, I had been married for, by the time we divorced, it'd been 25 years married. When you're with someone for really over 30 years, And you feel like retirement is coming, the children are almost out of the house, you think you know where you're going, and then all of a sudden literally the rug gets pulled out from underneath you.

And it is a tumble, and it takes a long time to get back on your feet. Especially when you're trying to do it on your own. What I'm learning, what I've learned with working with clients is they all have the same fear. They all have the same concerns. They all say, I don't know what I don't know. And that's terrifying.

So especially when you're, Oh, I was almost, I was approaching 50 and I'm sitting there going like, what the hell? I just wasn't prepared. This is marriage after that many years, you've already had a lot of battles and stumbles that we couldn't get through this one. For me personally, it wasn't small children for custody and that sort of thing.

But at that [00:04:00] point you're like, well, at that age at 50, what do I do now? 

Tarryn: Yeah. 

Nanette: So many women are feeling like, not only do I have to pull my life together, now I have to figure out what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. And it's terrifying. And. 

Tarryn: Yeah, that I can imagine that would 

Nanette: be very, very scary.

Tarryn: Yeah. Yeah. 

Nanette: Especially. And the other thing too, I want to add is a lot of times at this stage when you're married 2530 years. A lot of times women didn't work, didn't have a job. They stayed home. Husband went to work, raised the money, got the money, and the woman just sat home. And then all of a sudden, so many women are finding they don't know anything about their finances.

Sometimes they don't have a credit card. Sometimes their name isn't even on the house. Because that wasn't necessary. These are just all hurdles that are really challenging. 

Tarryn: Yeah, definitely. Now, most people would just go and hire a lawyer or something for a divorce. So you really emphasize. In your messaging and your [00:05:00] business that hiring the right team of professionals can really make such a difference.

So there's obviously you as a divorce coach, what kind of things do you help your clients with and what other support team do you recommend? 

Nanette: Okay. So, well, first of all, when I working with my clients, there are, you never know what kind of emotion you're going to get on any particular day. So there's always that challenge.

I work with my clients and I'm always very focused on their self care. That is really at most important to me because that way they can move through everything else a little bit easier. But their team needs to involve a financial advisor. And there are certified divorce financial advisors, which are really important.

Sometimes there's a realtor that you're going to have to sell the house and the two of you aren't always on the same page. There are realtors that are specialized in the divorce realm, accountants. Sometimes they might need a forensic accountant because they have to do some digging into making [00:06:00] sure that all the money is where they say it is.

These are all just not pleasant things to have to deal with. Yeah, definitely. One of the things that I hear a lot, often, if not always, from my clients at the end of the session or throughout the session is, Wow, I never thought about that. Oh, okay. That's one way to look at it. Because when you're going through a divorce, you are not thinking clearly.

Even the smartest, wisest, most intelligent people I have said, I'm so smart and yet I can't get my head wrapped around this. That's what we call a divorce fog, a divorce brain. And anytime I ever mentioned that people go, Oh, absolutely. That's exactly what it's called. So when you're talking with someone like myself and you get to go through a scenarios and have conversations, I don't charge for 500 an hour.

You want to make sure that you're prepared when you go to talk to your attorney. Let's break down everything that you need to discuss and ask them and work with them. You don't want to be fumbling through when you're sitting there [00:07:00] talking to your attorney. We need our attorneys. Absolutely. And which makes me really happy when there's divorce attorneys who really encourage their clients to seek a divorce coach.

Because that they want to just be facts and business. And a lot of times clients, they just waste so much money with their attorney talking about things or being emotional and just trying to figure things out when it could have been. Worked out before they actually sat down with them. I was one of them That's why I say that with confidence But I don't even want to think about how much money I wasted turn to my attorney for that emotional support Or I'd get angry and I'd call her and then you look back and go well, that was just dumb But yeah, but you don't know because they're the only lifeline you have Yeah.

Tarryn: Yeah. And I can see how important it is to have a lifeline when you are not only like financially feeling like you're drowning, but also emotionally, especially [00:08:00] after those long term divorces. And I'd love to say that things have changed quite a fair bit. On the feminist front, but I honestly don't believe that it has, especially when you become a mother.

Your capacity to earn is just cut off at the kneecap and then you separate and you have to try and start again. And then you can't go to work like a normal person or like a normal person. I mean, like a person without chins or there's a long daycare list. So you can't earn for a year or whatever it is.

And people don't even think about these things. They don't even realize. And especially the male don't realize this is even a thing. And I know that males hurt during divorce as well, but they seem to fare a hell of a lot better than women. And even though they say the system is geared towards women. I don't believe that that's true, having gone through it myself.

Just looking at the lifestyle differences now, I'm just like, I am so much worse off. [00:09:00] Well, the 

Nanette: statistic, and I'm in the US, you're in Australia, correct? 

Tarryn: Yeah. 

Nanette: I don't know about Australia, but I know in America, a woman's lifestyle drops like 40 percent the cost of living, like their spending, it dropped.

Yeah. The money drops 40%. A man is about 16 to 20. Yeah. It's massive difference. Oh my gosh. Oh my God. And absolutely. It's emotional for men. Um, I totally agree, but yeah, I agree with you though with women, it just suffers more financially. 

Tarryn: Yeah, definitely. 

Nanette: Yeah. 

Tarryn: So not only can a transition coach help with that financial cost of a divorce, but it is also an emotional cost, a huge emotional cost in having to rebuild, I suppose, your 

Nanette: identity again.

Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the things I always say is divorce is not just a legal battle. It's an emotional journey. And I think it's more emotion than legal. Yeah. [00:10:00] Because you could make decisions. It could be cut and dry. But what I've seen is there's always the other side that's wanting to give you a hard time.

Or I've heard men say, no woman is getting half of what I make. The law is the law, dude. So that's why, unfortunately, the forensic accountants, like in America, I don't know if it's the same, that, yeah, you have to have someone that can say, okay, yes, this is right, or, oh, we found something, where did this money go?

And it just gets really ugly. And that's where it makes the emotional side of it just worse than it needs to be. 

Tarryn: Yeah. I think that there's a huge gap in education about what it takes to actually run a household and raise a family. And it's not just physical, it's emotional. It's. It's mental, like that mental load, like women don't just lie down at night and go to sleep.

Like the head doesn't hit the pillow and you go to sleep. You're awake for another [00:11:00] two hours going, I need to put in the dentist appointment and so and so needs to be here tomorrow. And then there's a play date on the weekend on, I've got to get a present for that birthday party. And what am I cooking for dinner tomorrow?

Do I have this in the fridge? Do they have things for school? It is never ending and it's exhausting. There is an amazing book called Fair Play. That I really wish I had read prior to even getting married or into moving in with somebody else. Because I think it's a book that everybody should read because that would explain to me why I had become so resentful in my marriage.

Because I I didn't understand all of these things and how is he expected to understand it either? If I don't understand it, how does he? And what that comes down to is the huge lack of education. I think we're just expected, we're conditioned to go, well, I'm just going to give everything up. I'm going to sacrifice my body, my mental stability, my capacity to earn, my career, my life choices, my identity to have kids [00:12:00] and raise a household.

And there's magic in that. It's beautiful. But at the same time. Nobody understands that sacrifice unless you 

Nanette: actually do it unless you live it. Absolutely a hundred percent That's it in a nutshell a big nutshell because there's a lot I saw this funny Funny not funny very accurate mean the other day and it went something like this that being a mom is like having 126 tabs open on your computer Well, exactly.

Yes. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. It's always, we work 24 7. Not like 

Tarryn: you 

Nanette: clock off 

Tarryn: at 5 and it's not a 9 to 5. No way. And that's not to say like, I love our men. Don't get me wrong. I'm not raging feminist or anything like that. Yeah. I believe there is a lot of toxic femininity. Out there at the moment, I think there just needs to be these open conversations before people get into serious relationships, before people get married.

And you have to be on the same page because how the hell are we [00:13:00] expecting this to work if we're not on the same page, that is why I think divorce rates keep going up and up and up is because us, the women who are coming through in the younger generations, we're a bit more strong willed, I suppose, we've got more choices available to us than our ancestors did.

And we're tired of it. We're absolutely fucking tired of working for no gratitude, no pay, no appreciation, no recognition. And it gets to a point unless you've had these conversations that you just go, fuck this shit. Yes. 

Nanette: I love it. I agree because I have two daughters, I have three children, two daughters.

They're 26 and 32 and they are choosing not so much choosing a career, but they are being very choosy about who they want to marry. 

Tarryn: And 

Nanette: I. By all means, take your time along to be a grandma, but I don't want my kids getting into relationships that are [00:14:00] not going to work. It's just, it's just not good. And it's interesting that you say, um, about couples working this stuff out before they actually get married.

So I've just recently begun being able to, I've certified as. running workshops for vision boards and one of the programs, one of the workshops that I offer are specifically for newly engaged couples. I love that. I was just putting together. I was doing, creating my little Canva ad and it is, it's newly engaged.

Create your future vision board. And it's something where they both work on it together. And it's so important that, that you said that they talk about these things, you know, it's more than just, it's more than just, Oh, do you want children? 

Tarryn: Yeah. 

Nanette: It's more than, it's like much more than that. And I do agree that your generation is much females are doing a much better job planning, waiting.

But you're [00:15:00] telling my kids like. There's no rules here about, you have to be married by a certain time and you have to have children by a certain time. Unfortunately, society has told us that, which the other thing is like, what I like to say to people is, society tells you that if you are getting a divorce, what do you do first?

You hire an attorney. Yep. No. It is. And I, again, 10 years ago, that's what I did. Yeah. Know what else to do. But now I know through my research and education and coaching that you have to hire that divorce coach first. Let's make a plan. Yeah. To your financial advisor, because there's a lot of women also that they have to be sure that they actually are financially ready to end the marriage.

I have one client who it's an uncomfortable situation for her and she wants to leave, but she's not financially ready. So she's literally filing for divorce on hold until she can financially be ready. Now that's a bit of a struggle for her, you know, it's a [00:16:00] lot to wait, but I say knowledge and preparation are key.

I'm not an advocate for divorce. I didn't look worse. 

Tarryn: I don't think anybody wants divorce. Like it has been one of the most horrific things that I think I've ever, and especially when you have kids like that guilt, I know you had older children, but my kids, like my daughter was only six at the time and that guilt is just horrible.

Like I would never, and if I had known all of these things, if I'd had the opportunity to work through these things with my husband, I don't think there would have been an issue. Right. And it's so sad that you only find out after the fact that you could have prevented these things. But then there's two daughter under the bridge, right?

Yes. This becomes a whole convoluted thing. And I love that you've got two girls and I look at my daughter now, she's now eight and I'm terrified for her. Like honestly, this is going to sound really bad, but I honestly look at her sometimes and I think in my head, I'm so sorry you were born with a vagina.

[00:17:00] And because I have a son as well, and I'm like, thank God, thank God that you were born a boy, because you won't have to experience these horrific biases, I suppose, that we say, oh no, they're not. Yeah, everything's all equal. Everything's amazing. It's freaking not. It is not even close to being amazing. And I love that you're advocating for your kids to wait because there is no success path.

We've been lied to society's like, you go to university, you get good grades, you get a good job, you get married, you have a child, you buy a house together. Then you have another child and you live happily ever after. And you retire on the beaches of Tahiti and then you're done and everything's amazing, right?

It doesn't look like that anymore. 

Nanette: Oh, I wish. That's one thing that comes, it's cliche of, you know, age is wisdom and it's true. I'm certainly not the person, I don't think, the way I did 10 years ago. I am not, the things that I'm doing now, I never envisioned for myself. 

Tarryn: I just didn't. 

Nanette: It was never on the path.

And even, you know, as [00:18:00] where I got, how I got where I am today, I started this journey and said, I have no idea where this is going to take me. I've gone and taken one direction and you go in another direction. I just feel like it's unfolding as it should. 

Tarryn: Yeah. I mean, everything does unfold as it should, like we can plan all we want, but things happen and have to adapt.

And luckily we are very adaptable. Now, speaking from experience, I already know the answer to this, but can divorce be a peaceful process? It can 

Nanette: be. It can be. Unfortunately, fortunately, both sides have to be as marriage on the same page. The same thing as in divorce. And unfortunately, most times, that's not the case.

Yeah. I do coach both men and women, but currently it's just women right now. And there's always, The soon to be ex who's, there's an affair involved and they've had an interest for years and they want a divorce, but they don't want to give up their money. And they [00:19:00] just, there's a lot of lying 

Tarryn: yet, 

Nanette: but cheating was already done, but there's a lot of lying.

And I really, I never want to say, you know, don't want to be man basher, but I do tell them we can't trust them anymore. Cause so many women aren't ready to, when I talk to them, they're still in that denial stage. They don't want that divorce. They don't want to do this. But they're not the person that, I have to remind them, they're not the person that you married.

Tarryn: And this is the interesting thing. I love that you said that because I got very quite young. I got married at 26. And I think you've got so much more growing and evolving as a person to do. And even if you don't get married young, I think that human beings evolve and your interests change and your stages of life change.

And unless you change together, Unless you're on that same trajectory, like some people will change in completely different directions. Some people won't change at all. And then there's one person in the marriage who's changing and one who isn't. And then they turn around and go, Oh, well, you're not the same person I married.

And [00:20:00] you're like, well, no, it's like 10 years later. It's 20 years later. It's 30 years later. Of 

Nanette: course I'm not. Right. Right. Right. I'm not a 20 year old anymore. 

Tarryn: Exactly. And then you add kids into the mix and like, Oh, kids, like, I love my kids, but they will screw up a marriage faster than you can. They will.

Screw up a relationship faster than you can blink if you aren't working together. Together. 

Nanette: Yes. Yes. And it's interesting too, because until men and women learn to understand each other, 

Tarryn: It's 

Nanette: going to be an uphill battle all the time. Yeah. Do you 

Tarryn: think it is possible for men and women to understand each other?

I mean, this is an age old debate now, like men are from Mars, women are from Venus. Like it just seems to be this ongoing thing. 

Nanette: Well, and I also think that relationships are based in tolerance and acceptance. I did remarry about five years ago, said I would never remarry, but I did never say never. [00:21:00] But what it's taught me though, being married before, is now I know that it's communication is extremely important.

And I don't hold back. If there's an issue, I address it right away. So it's definitely, I think if you work on yourself, and self care and self, just self awareness. But you both have to do that. It can't be one sided. Both have to want to evolve and learn about each other. And again, if only one side is doing it though, it's not going to turn out well.

Yeah. 

Tarryn: I bet there are some like common misconceptions that you see across the board about the divorce process. What are people not understanding? What are, what do they think it is and what is it actually? 

Nanette: Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is I was just talking to a client a couple days ago, and there's a lot of back and forths.

Like one lawyer has to submit something, and then the other side has to present it, and then they come back. And so there was a deadline on something, and he didn't wrap the deadline. And my client was like, [00:22:00] oh, it's going to drag out longer. I said, well, no, it doesn't have to. You don't have to agree to it.

Just because they said, no, this date's not good. I want it two weeks later. You have every right to say no. I think that was like the most important thing is again, this is specifically for women. They don't realize that they have a voice. That their attorney works for them and they're allowed to say, no, I want it this way and I'm not going to get pushed around.

So again, it's not, yes, the lawyer has to advocate for you and make sure that the. Eyes are dotted and the T's are crossed and the information is put forth properly. But you have a voice and I want to empower women to know that because I've seen that so many times where you would, I'll again, I'll say something and you're like, Oh, I didn't know that.

Like, I didn't know I could. object to something. That and the fact that the soon to be ex husband is not living in the house anymore and he's claiming and he's giving [00:23:00] his soon to be ex wife money to run the household. And I said, well, do you know how much his check is? Cause he's giving her like 30 percent of it.

She said, no. So how do you know that he's actually giving you 30%? She's like, well, I don't know. It's like, you have to try. I said, you can't, you can't just assume and trust. 

Tarryn: Yeah. 

Nanette: And I don't like to give that information, but I just like you need to be transparent because again, they're not the person that you married.

They're not that person who's going to take care of you. And I think, especially for women, they struggle with that separating from the man that they married. And the man that they're divorcing, they're not the same person anymore. So it's that, oh, the lawyer will take care of me or my husband will be honest with me.

I don't assume anything. It's sad. I think it's human nature. It is. It is. But again, that's why I want to be that person. It's like, again, I don't, I'm not trying to get them to get more than what they deserve. I just, I'm just looking for them to be treated fairly. [00:24:00] taken advantage of and knowing that again, I'm not a lawyer, but I know that you have rights.

And once they hire the lawyer, that's it. That's all they can. That's it. They have to stick with that lawyer. And often I'll say, if you don't think that they're doing a good job or they're looking out for your best interest, you're allowed to. Get a new lawyer, but yeah, they work for you, but unfortunately, especially in divorce, you go in and you're so vulnerable, you're, you're broken 

Tarryn: and 

Nanette: you're looking for someone to like hold you and take care of you.

It's like, yeah. So it's not always easy though when you're broken. 

Tarryn: Yeah, that's right. So obviously divorce can be financially draining, but I can see how having the right team in place can actually reduce costs. And I think, I suppose if you're looking at it from a very black and white perspective, it'll go, well, why am I paying a lawyer?

And then I'm going to get a divorce cursion. I'm going to get a forensic accountant. And these are just all extra costs. Can you narrow it down [00:25:00] about how we can actually. Save money in a divorce by going down a multi team route. Yes. 

Nanette: So, it's simple because I've had some time to break it down and I've also been in a situation where I spent, I'm talking thousands of dollars too much on my divorce because I had a counselor and she was wonderful.

But a counselor helps you with your past. 

Tarryn: Yeah. 

Nanette: A coach helps you with the here and now moving forward. So, here's the scenario, again, a client dealing with this and she gets this crazy bill from her attorney and I'm just trying to say, let's talk about things, let's make a list of what you need, what you actually need to talk about.

But then she's making phone calls and sending text emails and doing things that she could be just asking me about. So it's a learning process. Yeah. You have to be coachable. But the scenario is A coach might be up to a couple hundred dollars a session, but that's for like an hour, hour and a half. Your [00:26:00] attorney, on the other hand, every time you send them an email, like if my clients send me an email, or a text message, or if they need a quick five minute phone call, there's no extra there.

I don't keep track of every 15 minutes that I'm texting. Yeah, attorney, you're billed for, you're billed for the letterhead that you're being, that their paper's printed out on. And also you're not always dealing with the attorney. Sometimes it's their, their assistant, but you're still getting charged for everything.

So these are just things that just add up and add up and add up. I've had attorneys say, yeah, we don't want to deal with the emotional side of a divorce. And I've had attorneys say to their clients, you're just wasting your money sitting here with me. Thank you. We've just, we've sat here for an hour, we've not accomplished anything, but that could have been things that, let's get your expenses in order, let's get, that's what I like to try to do, like, here's some sheets, let's get your expenses in order, let's get your budgeting in order, let's make a list of [00:27:00] knowing exactly how much money you spend a month.

But these are things that we can work on together. You don't have to have an attorney tell you that. You collect all the paperwork, you get all the information, and then you present it to your attorney when you're sitting with them. It's all business. The emotional rollercoaster, that's for me. Yeah. I'll sit down with my clients and there's often tears and they'll say I'm sorry, like there's no room for sorry.

That's not what, that's why you're here. You know, because it's like the littlest thing can trigger and then making sure that you have the right realtor. Realtors don't cost you money. Actually, one of my clients, I said, well, why don't you ask your realtor this list of questions? Because they don't charge you by the hour either.

There was some situations about the house. So, and I've always said too that I'm not asking attorneys to charge less, charge what they charge. I'm trying to get the client to spend less time with them. So then their bills don't have to be as high. But again, [00:28:00] client also has to listen to the coach. The client has to listen to the financial advisor.

Same with the financial advisor. That's not a I would rather discuss. My finances with an advisor, then two hours with my attorney, financial advisors don't charge like an attorney does either. So I'm hoping that all makes sense as to why a team is more important. I belong to a group called the amicable divorce network.

Oh, interesting. Is that just 

Tarryn: this 

Nanette: American thing? They're just going into, I believe, into England, but they are definitely trying to branch out. A female attorney started it in Georgia five years ago. And the interesting part is it's, people think, Oh, do both parties have to be amicable? No, because most of the time parties aren't amicable.

It's the people that you hire that are amicable. The attorneys are trying to get both They're clients. On the same [00:29:00] page. Yes. They're all on the same page. You want to have two attorneys that really just want to get the job done and not mess around with paperwork. Because that's happened so often that there's just a whole lot of games being played.

Attorneys they've got a bad name because they've, a lot of them have created it. Yeah. But let's drag this out another six months cause they've got a lot of money. They can afford it and I hate to say it, but I've seen it happen. So I'm not making stuff up 

Tarryn: happen 

Nanette: to me. So again, I've walked the walk and that's why I really try to help bring awareness to people that it's not just about hiring an attorney.

There's so much more than that. Your kids might need counseling. 

Tarryn: Yeah, definitely. I think that's important. 

Nanette: Absolutely. I had to, it's not easy when they're older either. You can't force them. There's, yeah, it's a waste. But the other thing I hear too, from mostly men. Is that this doesn't involve the kids.

This is just [00:30:00] between us. 

Tarryn: It's 

Nanette: like throwing maybe a heavy rock into the water will just go down to the ground and not ripple, but it's a ripple effect. Yeah, definitely. You throw that stone in the water and it's going to have a ripple effect. It affects way more than just the two people involved. 

Tarryn: That's a beautiful analogy, a beautiful vision of like, if you choose to throw that stone in the water, it's going to continue to ripple.

And it's not just ripple for that moment. It ripples for 

Nanette: years. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I've lived it. I've lived it. 

Tarryn: Now, I mentioned the book Fair Play earlier, but let's talk about your book. What is your book called? And what is it about? Um, 

Nanette: Positive Intelligence by Shirzad, I can't think of his last name.

No, no. Your book that you wrote. Oh, that I wrote. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about a book that affected mine. No, no. My book is called Shattered Dreams and New Beginnings. It is my journey of [00:31:00] heartbreak, healing, and growth. And it's not a book about, it's a memoir sort of, it's a very strange genre to put it into, but it's more about inspiration for others who are going through struggles.

Now I've even had people read it who are widows or widowers. 

Tarryn: Yeah. 

Nanette: And they say this is a great book for that as well, like for that, that healing, because the analogy of divorce and death is very, very close. The healing process is the same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tarryn: Um, 

Nanette: many people, the more people I talk to feel that divorce is actually worse than the death of a spouse.

And it's so, I don't want to say refreshing is a bad word to use, but when I was going through divorce, grief was not an emotion that I anticipated. 

Tarryn: Oh my gosh, I couldn't agree more. Even if you're the one to initiate the separation, that grief is, oh my gosh, what a [00:32:00] monster to suddenly rear its head that you're not expecting.

It's just, 

Nanette: it's real. I kept that to myself for a very long time. I'm like, oh my gosh, how can I feel this way? I got goosebumps just even talking about it. How am I, I felt like I was being disrespectful to those who. We're separated because of the death of a spouse. 

Tarryn: Yeah. More. I agree with you. Grief in divorce is a real thing.

Oh, it's very, very real thing. 

Nanette: Yeah. And it's almost, again, it's worse because I didn't expect it when someone dies, you're going to be grieving, but to have this creep up on you and like, wow, what is this emotion? So it's very common. It's almost strange if you don't feel grief. I've actually talked to a gentleman once that divorced and he said it was amicable.

Like they just grew apart. They both agreed to divorce, but he said, I still cried like a baby. Yep. Yeah, you do. You think that you've got this forever thing and suddenly it's [00:33:00] not and it's hard enough to admit it but then to actually go through it. 

Tarryn: Disney has a lot to answer for here. Like we, I think we grow up having this totally unrealistic Expectation of what a marriage is.

And it's the same thing with parenting. Like when I became a parent or when I gave birth, I was like, what the actual hell just happened? Like you see the parenting magazines and the moms are so happy and they're so beautiful and you're like, this is not reality. This is a totally fake. No, it is 

Nanette: not 

Tarryn: reality.

That is setting us up to fail. 

Nanette: It is. 

Tarryn: No, we need to be able to have those tough conversations and go, This is what it's really like, this is what is important and you need to make time for. These are the conversations we, we need to be having. And I'm a big advocate for, I think this should be happening in schools, like stop teaching us fricking Pythagoras theorem.

That's not going to help me. How about you teach me conscious relationships? How about you teach me financial smarts, like [00:34:00] actual real day money and how it works? Like how about we teach those things? 

Nanette: Yeah. How about just a class on life? It's very true that the things that we learn in school, it's so funny because I just all of a sudden thought about like geography class.

I hated geography. This, I just hated it. Because you totally need to know what a cumulonimbus cloud looks like. Exactly. But even on the maps and like, Oh my God, I don't know what country and stuff, but now I travel a lot. Oh my gosh. I'm looking at the map. I'm seeing where I'm going. I understand it. It's like, Oh, that's cool.

Oh, I get that now. But when I was in school, yeah, I just didn't like it. But. Fair enough. I think it's all hands on though. I think it's all. You know. You better live it. You can't just read a book and, and think you know everything about it. You have to live it. For sure talking about, to our kids about relationships and communication and.

And 

Tarryn: also modeling that. Like I, I can [00:35:00] certainly speak from experience like growing up, watching the marriages around me of the adults around me, you're taught that that's okay, that that's what you should want. And it's like, well, no, that's highly dysfunctional. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you just get into the same path in yourself without even consciously realizing that that's actually a dysfunctional thing that you're replicating.

Yes. And then you wonder why everything's blown up in your face. Well, it's like, well, if you look back on it, you were never going to succeed because you weren't consciously operating in that space. You were just following the bouncing ball or the path or the models that were laid out for you. And That may not necessarily be right for you.

Nanette: No. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, again, I look at my kids and I thought they had to go to high school and college and then they were going to, and they were not following that path. And their dad was just like, what do you mean they're not going to college? And what do you mean they're not going to university?

You can't force someone to do something that they don't want to do. It's a waste of time and money if you do that. Yeah. And my [00:36:00] kids are all successful in their own right. And I think that's a really great thing that their own way in their own time. 

Tarryn: I couldn't agree more. 

Nanette: Manette, 

Tarryn: we have sat, had such an insightful conversation.

I feel like I could talk to you for so many more hours, but we have a tradition on this podcast called the book drop and we want to know what book has impacted you either personally or professionally that you're going to recommend to us today. 

Nanette: There's where I came in with the positive intelligence.

Yes. So it is about being conscious and living in the moment being aware This is it in a brilliant in a nutshell But it's being present and it's being conscious of everything you do like when you're getting up in the morning I go I use this analogy is holding that shot cup of coffee or tea Hold that tea on your hands taking in the steam when you're washing your hands Truly paying attention how it feels the bubbles when you're washing dishes You [00:37:00] Wash the dishes.

It's just not always having your brain in 25 different directions. And as we talked about earlier, how can, as mothers, where that's what we do. But throughout the day, like even when you're walking, pay attention to your feet hitting around. And this book, it just, obviously it goes so much deeper to so much more, but, and we can't consciously do that all day long.

But if throughout the day you can take those moments. To just really just focus. Turn everything off. And again, when you're brushing your teeth, just be exactly just be. And, um, yeah, that book definitely helped me change my focus on how I go through my day every once in a while. Okay. I really need to just rein it in.

There's actually a, there was an app that I, I took this, um, course, it was called Positive Intelligence. And you had to chart your time throughout the day where you took two minutes to just see, constituting, breathing, meditating. [00:38:00] And I think it just helps us learn to focus when things do get really crazy and the day's just frazzled.

Tarryn: Yeah. 

Nanette: If you can, every once in a while, pull yourself out of that little whirlwind and ground yourself for a minute, kind of reset button. 

Tarryn: It's the small moments that make all the difference. 

Nanette: Yeah. 

Tarryn: Nanette, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom today. Thank you for the work that you do in the world, because I think that it will make a world of difference to the people that choose a different approach to divorce.

And it definitely can be amicable. My husband is a divorce.

And so I do believe that divorce can be peaceful and that there is hope for us out there and us women are strong, us humans are strong, even the men going through divorce, like it's not the end of the world, you can totally rebuild and you can choose 

Nanette: to 

Tarryn: get back 

Nanette: up and keep going. Absolutely. We can, and we are very strong beings.

But we have to believe that also. [00:39:00] 

Tarryn: A hundred percent. You have to believe in yourself. Nanette, thank you so much. So very much. It's been a pleasure.